X-Git-Url: http://unremediatedgender.space/source?p=Ultimately_Untrue_Thought.git;a=blobdiff_plain;f=content%2Fdrafts%2Fchallenges-to-yudkowskys-pronoun-reform-proposal.md;h=73353b139d43f67b12c8da8950b29fadb1529441;hp=b1a37b81a3f6eebe1c72560f000c6dc1c2dacfa7;hb=8cc40964b870cea7ca9d2d42a3cc3edb2c2a1f71;hpb=af0014f8ce909f4fae5fc5107b5a0390f69f4c97 diff --git a/content/drafts/challenges-to-yudkowskys-pronoun-reform-proposal.md b/content/drafts/challenges-to-yudkowskys-pronoun-reform-proposal.md index b1a37b8..73353b1 100644 --- a/content/drafts/challenges-to-yudkowskys-pronoun-reform-proposal.md +++ b/content/drafts/challenges-to-yudkowskys-pronoun-reform-proposal.md @@ -179,6 +179,8 @@ a rationality community that can't think about this stuff, but can get existenti ------ +Fit in somewhere— + * work in the LambdaMOO anecdote where appropriate * singular they for named individuals undermined indefinite singular 'they' • not the woke position—it's an incoherent position @@ -191,50 +193,30 @@ https://www.facebook.com/yudkowsky/posts/10159421750419228 https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/onwgTH6n8wxRSo2BJ/unnatural-categories-are-optimized-for-deception -OUTLINING -• The problem with this is that the proposed convention still transmits sex-category info; you're just not being honest about it -• Software is already deployed +> misgendering sucks, but what feels even more violent is when people get my pronouns right and i can tell they still perceive me as a man +https://twitter.com/AFROlNCOGNlTO/status/1389080592084463618 + +> a lot of cis people use 'learning someone's pronoun' as a copout from doing the important internal work of actually reconsidering their impression of the person's gender +https://twitter.com/pangmeli/status/1079097805250224130 +> like let's be real—the reason you have a hard time "remembering" her pronoun is because you don't really think of her as a her. if you practiced thinking of her as a her, her pronoun would just come. and then you wouldn't be privately betraying her in your head all the time. +https://twitter.com/pangmeli/status/1079142303183327232 -Fit in somewhere— • Aside: "gamete size"—this is a tic where everyone knows what sex is, but no one is allowed to acknowledge the cluster • Aella https://knowingless.com/2019/06/06/side-effects-of-preferred-pronouns/ -• Pronouns are ryphenol https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/ -• Policy debates should not appear one-sided -• Rape victim is a sympathetic character -• "I don't know what it feels like to 'you don't look like an Oliver'" is a lie; you can use pronouns for someone whose sex but not name you don't know -• non-compelled speech is more compelling than clothing freedom -• at least Sabbatai Zevi had an excuse: his choices were to convert to Islam or be impaled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi#Conversion_to_Islam • I need the correct answer • "We can't talk about this"—utterly discrediting of the entire project" • What is the regularity in human psychology such that we end up with "gendered" noun classes? We are sexually dimorphic animals -• compare the formal/informal distinction tu/Usted in other languages—that's a case where you obviously want speaker choice, not subject choice • the people aligning language models need to know this!! • he can only speak in terms of abstractions that are very obviously not what's happening—it's true that bathroom usage is not an ontological fact, but the function of bathrooms is _to protect females from males_. If you can't talk about that core issue—the thing that people actually care about—then the smugness is actively derailing the discussion, even if you didn't say anything false • And doesn't EY have this whole thing about how you can't just wish away coordination problems?! (Although, this also makes it harder to escape the self-ID Schelling point) • Schild's ladder—noun classes in other languages are already pretty arbitrary; if the proposal is to make names like that • TODO: buff my "circular definition satisfies no one" argument to not be vulnerable to the anti-Liskov-substitution property of natural language definitions -• -• typographic attacks https://openai.com/blog/multimodal-neurons/ -• singular - https://www.ehu.eus/seg/_media/gizt/5/5/brown-gilman-pronouns.pdf -> In terms of important things? Those would be all the things I've read - from friends, from strangers on the Internet, above all from human beings who are people - describing reasons someone does not like to be tossed into a Male Bucket or Female Bucket, as it would be assigned by their birth certificate, or perhaps at all. - -Well, as Yudkowsky says earlier in the post, many "human beings who are people"—which pleonastic construction bizarrely seems to suggest Yudkowsky is opposing someone who somehow believes that some humans are _not_ people, but never mind—have "describ[ed] reasons someone does not like to be tossed into a Male Bucket or Female Bucket, as it would be assigned by their birth certificate, or perhaps at all." - -Even if - -For example, I think it's Shenanigans to use the word "roommate" to refer to people who only share a house or apartment and not a literal room; surely you should say "housemate" or "flatmate" if that's what you really mean. However, this claim of mine about the meaning of the word "roommate" is [actually _false_ in American usage](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roommate). (Apparently the British are more sensible about this.) The only way to get the Shenanigans to stop is to get people to _actually_ adopt my usage in their mapping of people's-living-situations to word-used-to-describe-living-situation. If I were to just _pretend_ that my preferred usage was already the actual usage, then I would make worse predictions when my friends in California mention their roommates. - What Quakers Can Teach Us About the Politics of Pronouns https://archive.is/bYdde -If the software is written so that each computer broadcasts a `{"object_type": "BLEGG"}` JSON message when it detects a [blue egg-shaped object](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4FcxgdvdQP45D6Skg/disguised-queries) in front of its webcam, then we can can say that the `{"object_type": "BLEGG"}` message "means" that a blue egg-shaped object was seen; - -Maybe this was a design mistake! - https://www.genderdissent.com/the-resistance-column https://www.womenarehuman.com/extra-jail-time-for-incarcerated-women-who-use-male-pronouns-for-male-transgender-identifying-inmates/ @@ -242,11 +224,3 @@ https://www.womenarehuman.com/extra-jail-time-for-incarcerated-women-who-use-mal Spanish speakers screw up he/she—because they're used to dropping pronouns! https://cogsci.mindmodeling.org/2017/papers/0639/paper0639.pdf https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/1468204472908369926 - -> misgendering sucks, but what feels even more violent is when people get my pronouns right and i can tell they still perceive me as a man -https://twitter.com/AFROlNCOGNlTO/status/1389080592084463618 - -> a lot of cis people use 'learning someone's pronoun' as a copout from doing the important internal work of actually reconsidering their impression of the person's gender -https://twitter.com/pangmeli/status/1079097805250224130 -> like let's be real - the reason you have a hard time "remembering" her pronoun is because you don't really think of her as a her. if you practiced thinking of her as a her, her pronoun would just come. and then you wouldn't be privately betraying her in your head all the time. -https://twitter.com/pangmeli/status/1079142303183327232